Hi All,
Newbie and this is my first post, so please ignore should I un-intentionally break any rules! Here is my problem and I would be grateful for any suggestions. Up to 6 months ago my equipment was very simple and straight forward. Basically setup for classic rock stuff. This band I was playing have regular gigs at 2 sporting clubs and a social club. Anyhow, there were few band membership changes and type of music we were playing have changed for the better. More variety really.
Amp 1: Dean Markley RM-80-DR combo amp (circa. 1986) with 12" speaker, 1 tube in pre-amp section for over-drive and 80 watts solid state transistor power amp.
Amp 2: Peavey 8 watts practice amp. Used this amp at home so I don't upset the neighbours.
Axe 1: Burny Les Paul Custom copy (circa. 1985) with 2 humbucker pups.
Axe 2: Ibanez Roadstar II RS205 Strat copy (circa. 1983) with single coil in the middle, 2 humbucker in neck and bridge. Modified to be Super Strat for 80's stuff.
Axe 3: Ibanez Roadstar II RS405 Strat copy (circa. 1983) with 3 single coil pups.
Been able to get fairly generic crunch rock guitar sound with careful setting of EQ. Also A/B channel switching adds that extra option. When I started playing about 5 years ago, I read the gear from early to mid 80's were often over-looked. I was able to pick up these quality stuff for a fraction of the price of modern gear. Vintage Marshal, Gibsons and Fenders from late 50's and early 60's were way out of my budget. Anyhow, I bought ToneLab SE about 6 months after some research to add variety of sound, effects and profiling options to my gig rig. When I first got the TLSE, I played with Guitar ---> ToneLab ---> Peavey practice amp setup at home. Man, this setup just sings and for three weeks I was downloading patches and playing with different profiles, etc. I was really looking forward to outing this new toy.
Anyhow, I went to my first gig with ToneLab and plugged in to Dean Markley. This is the first time with ToneLab & Dean Markley. I really can't play with with my gig rig at home. My place is not real big and neighbours are not really in to AC/DC or Led Zep. OK the set up is same as my practice config (ie. Guitar ---> ToneLab ---> Dean Markley). Yikes, sound was muddy and horrible. I tried with different gain and EQ settings but no luck. I ended up disconnecting the ToneLab and reverted back to direct Guitar ---> Amp setup. Managed to get through the night but really disappointed. I suspect I know why its doing this, although I don't know how to fix it. I'm know I'm basically putting tube overdrive/gain source in-front and in-to another tube overdrive/gain device (ie. Dean Markley Pre Amp).
Next weekend I took all my gear down to one of the sporting clubs, one night middle of the week (Wednesday night I think!) and cranked up with same config as gig night. Same problem! Muddy sound. OK plan B!!! the amp had six sockets at the back. They were (Effects loop IN, Effects loop OUT, Channel Switch, Reverb, Power Amp IN, Pre Amp OUT), I've only used 'Channel Switch' and 'Reverb' before. I now tried "Guitar ---> Amp" & "ToneLab Input ---> Amp Effect loop OUT" & "ToneLab Left/Mono Output ---> Amp Effect loop IN". This was marginally better but all the patches sounded the same! Why??? I have no idea. Did some reading of TLSE manual as well as searching the Net. Found hints on the net about cabinet selection can be switched off and it should help with this problem. I'm not keen to do this at all because I want the sound coming out of the speaker to be the same as what I hear in my headphone. I mean even the cheap Peavey practice amp came fairly close to sound coming out of headphone.
Back to my Proverbial woodshed and look for plan C. Since I never got the manual for the amp when I bought it second hand, I had no idea Power Amp IN and Pre Amp OUT means. Search the net via Google. There was no luck tracking down manual for the amp but found lots of articles on Pre Amps and Power Amps. Also read Dimebag Darrell R.I.P used to play through Dean Markley RM-80-DR for his clean channel stuff. The connection schematic shows RM-80-DR 'Pre Amp OUT' goes in to huge Power Amps with gazillion watts. OK, now I know what Pre Amp OUT does. That means 'Power Amp IN' must connect to external 'Pre Amp'. OK ToneLab is essentially a Pre Amp. Yep back to my late night practice trip to the sporting club again.
This time I connected "Guitar ---> ToneLab SE input" & "ToneLab SE Mono/Left output ---> Dean Markley Power Amp IN socket". OK first thing I notice was all control knobs that adjust the amp (ie, Gain, Master Volume, EQ's, ...) were all dead as well as the stand-by switch. The amp is now totally controlled by ToneLab SE. Yipeee!!! I'm finally getting tone and sound very close to what I hear in the headphone.
Played a gig on Saturday night and the guitar sound was good. So why am I writing this? Whilst I'm happy with different tones I'm finally getting; I'm still striving for more volume. Like I said there is no way to make the amp louder. Not with the knobs on the amp anyhow! I have the output level (ie. the little rubber knob at the back of the ToneLab SE unit) all the way up but I'm still not coming out loud enough.
Is my only option would be to buy another amp? Is there anything within the ToneLab SE that can increase the volume/level output?
If I were to buy another amp: during my research on the net I came across a lot of talk about 'Transparent' amps. 2 amps keep cropping up is 'Tech 21 Power Engine 60' and 'Atomic Amp'. I also seen 'Tech 21' is transistor and much cheaper. 'Atomic' is tube and cost near double 'Tech 21'. Other amps mentioned were Roland Cubes, Peavey Classic 120, heap of other transistor/clean amps.
What are your experience?
Cheers Sam
Hi, i am using a VHT 2/90/2
Tue, 2008/06/10 - 1:26am — JvKHi, i am using a VHT 2/90/2 tube power amp and a VHT FB4x12 cab and can get as loud as i can. This amp has KT88 tubes and has no distortion at all on clean sounds even on very high volumes. Other thing is that this setup is really simple and i can go stereo since the amp has left/right channel and the cab is stereo also. Main thing you should notice is to get an "honest" power amp section behind your SE. Playin directly on powered monitors etc sounds good on clean sounds but for me playin rock is feel the blast of a cab.
grz JvK
I used to have a Tech21, but
Tue, 2008/06/10 - 6:32am — tbyrdI used to have a Tech21, but didn't like the tone near as much as my Fender HR Deluxe. I recently bought the Atomic 112-18, and it sounds good without having to tweak the tones that I use direct to the PA. Nice little amp for $275 on ebay. Better than the HRD? Not really, just different, mainly because of the closed back.
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandID=442828
Hi Sam; Welcome to the
Tue, 2008/06/10 - 12:07pm — hotramanHi Sam;
Welcome to the site.
I think most of us here would admit that it takes time to dial in your amp settings. I can relate to your experience.
I would program tones with my headphones only and then play thru an amp.... bad idea.
1st tip: program your patches "live"
2nd tip; check out the atomic. I have a 112-50.
Its way loud... and sound great live!
just my 2 cents.
Sam, is it quieter than when
Tue, 2008/06/10 - 10:38pm — Will CSam, is it quieter than when you don't use your TLSE? Have you tried increasing each channel's output? Can you mike your rig and get some more volume through stage monitors?
Will
P.S. Welcome to Tonelab.net!
Sam, I had the same problem.
Wed, 2008/06/11 - 5:32pm — Rover11Sam,
I had the same problem. I wanted more volume out of a solid state power amp. Even though the power amp is 300 watts, when I ran it in stereo at 8 ohms it reduced the output to 90 watts per speaker (2x12), and the Vox SE wasn't producing enough preamp output. I bought an Art TPS II tube preamp for $100 used. This is a transparent preamp with gain and output settings to give you a warmer tone... and a much louder volume! I used to have to set the power amp at about 10 to play with a band at low levels, now I keep it below 5 and adjust the gain and output on the preamp. It has a simple eq setting: electric guitar, valve warmth, acoustic, etc. but most of all I boosted my volume levels through the roof and it's a warm transparent tone so it doesn't color the Tonelab's settings at all.
Rover-the ART TPS is a great
Thu, 2008/06/12 - 7:58pm — firebrandRover-the ART TPS is a great idea.
Sam-I would encourage you to find one of these, or an ART Tube MP (the size of a direct box) or even a booster pedal to put AFTER the TLSE.
The other option would always be to buy a second amp and run it as your stereo counter to the main amp.
4 years ago, when I knew I was going to be at a gig where my amp (then a 60watt Fender Cyber Deluxe)was not going to be enough, I would send a line to my ART Carbon Fiber Attack Module (what a name, huh?) This little guy had 2 8 inch speakers and 80 watts. Because of the way they molded the back of the amp, I could tilt it back to make it a monitor wedge. So the Cyber would be on a stand behind me, and the ART would be on the floor in front. I worked AND sounded great.
Nowadays my rig is somewhat smaller. My main amp is a Traynor Custom Special 50 tube amp. It's like an atomic, only it has a "normal" tube preamp as well. It is about 1/3 lighter and smaller than an Atomic. I have been very happy with it. Also, the Master Volume, Presence and Resonance controls still work when I go to the Power Amp in with the TLSE.
Hi Everyone, Thanks for the
Sun, 2008/06/15 - 2:04pm — DeeHi Everyone,
Thanks for the feed back.
Following is 5 of the signal booster that looks likely -
1. BBE Boosta Grande Clean Boost Effect Pedal
2. Aphex 1403 Electric Guitar Exciter Pedal
3. Seymour Duncan SFX-01 pickup booster
4. Fulltone Fat Boost
5. MXR Boost/Line Driver
Have you used any of these boxes. What do you think?
Firebrand,
Is the following setup, what you have in mind -
Guitar --> Vox ToneLab SE --> 'Signal Booster' --> Dean Markley Power Amp IN socket
Cheers Sam
Hi! Then using an amp with
Mon, 2008/06/16 - 9:44am — deemanHi!
Then using an amp with the Tonelab LE i use
my Dean Markley DMC-40, for the moment
i use power amp in socket.
Will try it in the LOOP then i got all cabels.
/Danny
Dee, That is exactly what I
Mon, 2008/06/16 - 1:23pm — firebrandDee,
That is exactly what I would try.
That way I am not hitting the ToneLab with too hot a signal.
I would also try it in the insert/loop and see what happens.
I used to use a Visual Sound
Mon, 2008/06/16 - 1:25pm — firebrandI used to use a Visual Sound Route 66 as my booster.
I have heard great remarks from others about the BBE and the MXR. The Duncan pedal may shift the fundamental sound away from what you want.
Did you also
Thu, 2008/06/19 - 10:00am — kaalDid you also try
Guitar-->Tonelab Input & Tonelab left/Mono Out --> Effectloop IN?
I have no idea where the effect loop IN is technically exactly located in the Dean Markley, but it could potentially be located far enough "after" the Guitar-In to get rid of the first input stage's coloring and far enough "before" the Power Amp IN to give you some more amplification/volume. This differs a bit from what you describe ("Guitar ---> Amp" & "ToneLab Input ---> Amp Effect loop OUT" & "ToneLab Left/Mono Output ---> Amp Effect loop IN") since it gets the Dean Markley section before the Effect Loop IN out of the way.
Carefully adjust TLSE output levels and (it probably still works in this setup) the Dean Markley EQ/Volume section. Maybe you are lucky and can save the money for a booster...
(I am sure you already tried both AMP/LN output options of the TLSE)
Hey Everyone, Finally
Tue, 2008/08/12 - 8:53pm — DeeHey Everyone,
Finally kicking goals!!! OK, it's been a while since my last post. The last post was when I was trying to get a 'booster' and I was bidding for a BBE on fleabay. Not sure it was a good thing or bad thing but I missed the BBE by few dollars. To be honest, I never was real sure whether that was the way to go. Just that my current job is a bit tenuous and I may not be getting a new contract in first quater of next year. I can't really afford to spend too much (if any!!!) until I know for sure of my contract renewal status. Definitely out of question as well on buying Tech 21 Power Engine 60 or Atomic Reactor 112-50.
Started looking around for hints and tips on the net in regards to Dean Markley RM-80-DR 112 Combo. Most of the stuff I found was 'how clean the rhythm channel is' and 'how crappy the over-drive channel is'. Nothing new here!!! I already know that. Found one interesting post on Harmony Central about replacing the original speaker with Electro Voice EVM12L. Looked on the fleabay and found the 'new release EMVs'. They were Classic 200 watts and Zakk Wylde's 300 watts. Both expensive.
A month ago a friend of mine told me about a bloke that was dismantling his 4 x 12" cab that went with his Mesa Boogie head. It was just too heavy and way too loud. This bloke was keeping 2 speakers to build 2 x 12" cab and selling the other 2. Guess what they were? Yep, Original EVM 12L circa 1985. Would have loved to buy both but didn't quite have the cash. Got one for $120.
Pulled out the original speaker and put the EV speaker. Immediately noticed the weight increase. Dean Markley Magnum 80 watts weighted around 4kg. The EV is whopping 8Kg (at least!). Another thing I notice was the the clean mids and tight bass. There really was not that much difference in treble department. Another thing I did was start using the 'Global switch' and changed from 'Amp' to 'Line'. Ok, take a back step here. Even when I was connecting Guitar --> Vox --> Power Amp (hence by passing the pre-Amp all together), I get horrrrrrible treble tone whenever I used the 'Line' setting. Sure it was more defined and louder than 'Amp' setting but I just hate the sharp, compressed and sterile sound. So I used to persevere with the dark sounding 'Amp' setting. Sorry, I digress!!! We had a band practice on Thursday night and I only took my Burny Les Paul Custom, Vox ToneLab SE and Dean Markley loaded with Electro Voice.
OK, the band is drummer, bass, 2 guitars (me and another bloke), singer that plays keyboards sometime. The other guitar player has Line 6 FlexTone 60 and Fender Strat. He usually have the Strat sound covered. Previously, I struggle to hear myself on the stage, especially when I'm playing solos. Worse still the singer can't hear me, so there is always been issue with when he can sing again after solos. Usually we get around this by me playing exact (as exact as I can copy) original solo of the song and I definitely can't afford to muck-up. The other guitarist can go off and play some great extended solos. Bugger!!! I digress again!
On Thursday night at practice I had the volume knob on ToneLab around 1/2. About the usual setting where I can sort of hear myself over the other guitarist. Remember I'm plugged directly in to power amp and there are no controls at all. Holy smoke! It was loud. I played the entire night with volume on about 1/3. Another thing I notice was I can actually hear myself on smallest change of tone and volume knob on the guitar. By the way Les Paul Custom, Vox on 'Line' setting, a patch from this site called 'ZZTOP$', Dean Markley with EVM speaker. Hummmmmmm!!! Match made in heaven. The sound was clear, pretty clean, warm and thick. Go you good thing!!!
Sunday gig was from 3:30pm to 6:00pm. Setup was completed at 1:00pm. Can't do sound check because bass and drummer can't get there till 3:00pm. Went home and practice some scales. Back at the sport club at 3:00pm to sound check. Had my volume knob on a shade over 1/2. It was a monster sound. Other bloke's FlexTone started clipping-out, so have to bring the volume peddle on the TLSE about 1/3 up. That together with backing off the volume knob on the guitar bring down the my rhythm sound to where we can hear the other bloke's solos. When I took solos on 'Are u going my way' and 'Chinatown', pressed the volume paddle all the way down and pickup selector on bridge pup of LPC, the sound was clear but had balls like coconuts. Rhythm riffs of 'La Grange' and 'Joker and a thief' was 'Yeah Baby!!!' The brown sound is right there!!! Got so inspired, got up and sang 'Pretty Woman' Van Halen version using a patch from this site called 'Van Halen-Balance'. Usually don't sing but the singer didn't know all the lyrics and I just wanted to try out VH version of brown sound.
Hope I haven't put anyone to a sleep. Just want to relate to my experience in full, so nobody will have to repeat same mistakes. Albeit admitting to the forum that I've made complete 'Goose' of myself. Several times!!! It's been long and winding road (pun intended!). Now I'm happy with what I have. In a way I hope my contract won't be renewed so I can practice and play full time. NOT!!!
Keep on rocking!!!
The Balance patch ROCKS, yes
Thu, 2008/08/14 - 7:17pm — mself61The Balance patch ROCKS, yes I did fall asleep
), anyway yours aren't that much newer than mine so they probably look close, just thought I'd make this thead longer 
.
the thing that interested me about this thread was your Ibanez Roadstar II's I guess I have an earlier Roadstar cause I just took it out and looked to see what model it was and it don't have one :/ It's a straight Japan Roadstar II, I put single EMG's in it about 1985 andded a Washburn Wonderbar instead of the funky trem they had, I don't play it much (last 10 years hardly at all, probably needs a new battery
www.selfdistruction.com
http://groups.google.com/group/tonelab-patch-exchange
Hey mself61, Thanks for
Fri, 2008/08/15 - 7:52pm — DeeHey mself61,
Thanks for encouragement! Not!! I have feelings too, you know!!! Only kidding. May be I should start recommending my post to people that have trouble falling asleep :-(
Anyhow I'm glad you read it though. This is the only place where I can yak-on about my adventures! Besides other band members don't want to listen to my problems regarding getting a good sound. Joe the second guitarist is also 'in search' of his version of 'the sound'.
Joe got a second hand Line6 flextone about a year ago and he also bought a Line6 peddle board that he can program. He gets fair Variety of good sounds but still they are quite 'compressed' and digital sounding. Most of his programs sound like 80's S/S amp called Gallien-Krueger. A friend of mine used to have one of these amps and they nail the 80's Glam Metal sound. Nothing wrong with that sound but must be frustrating to be getting 'only a sound' out of modelling amplifier. Hey, just ask me!
He managed to get hold of a software based modeller this week. It needs a laptop to run it and got heap of patches and models. Stuff like 'Orange' and 'HiWatt'. This package definitely adds a range to his sound variety. The only catch is taking a laptop to gigs. I can just see the lead singer getting carried away one night and knocking the computer off from this flimsy stand Joe uses.
Sunday gig was really inspiring. It was one of those occasions where I knew I was the weakest link. The amp with EV speaker - checked. ToneLab SE - checked. Burny Les Paul Custom - checked. 'The Sound' - checked. Me - ho hum. Better get my guitar lessons books out and start practising again!!!
Yes, I digress. I was not real accurate with my description of the Ibanez. It's 1983 according to the serial number on the neck plate. Dating details can be found at heap of websites. The body is white that has aged to yellow-cream colour from 25 years of age. It's maple neck with no finger board. Frets are set in the neck itself. Very glassy sounding. Originally it had something called Super6 overwound single coils. I had particularly good tax rebate a year ago so I put in the following in October last year. The 2nd and 4th positions are not real flash but neck and bridge positions just sings.
Duncan Full Shred in neck - used
Duncan hot stack (single space humbucker) in middle - used
Duncan Custom Custom in Bridge - new
CTS Potentiometers 500K for volume and tone controls
Hovland MusiCap .022mF for tone control capacitor
Add Mallory Treble Bleed Capacitor
Oak Grigsby Five Way Superswitch
Switchcraft 1/4" Output Jack
Callaham Vintage CG Saddles for bridge
Cheers Sam
well I actually fell a
Sat, 2008/08/16 - 3:56pm — mself61well I actually fell a sleep because when I get home from work and get on tonelab.net or any other site for that matter my brain just wants to take a deep sleep nap
, so it really wasn't your post ( are ya smiling again ?) :~)
www.selfdistruction.com
http://groups.google.com/group/tonelab-patch-exchange
Hey mself61, No sweat. Had a
Mon, 2008/08/18 - 5:28pm — DeeHey mself61,
No sweat. Had a play of your Ibanez recently? According to what I read on the net, Ibanezs from circa 1982 & 1983 were right up there with the genuine Stratos. Just that Ibanezs can be picked up for quite a bit cheaper than Fernandez, Greco and Tokai. For some reason they don't appear to be considered as 'collectables'.
Would love Gold Star Tokai from the mid 80's but you don't see them many around and they are expensive. As I've posted before I have '83 Roadstar RS-205 that's be rerouted and heavily modified. Really should have kept it stock. My other axe is Roadstar RS-405. These are supposedly equivalent to Strato custom shop quality. Don't know what custom shop axe play or sound like but the RS-405 on neck pickup with tone rolled back nails the mellow Clapton sound every time.
Also have Ibanez '85 Roadstar RS-130 loaded with pickups that came out of late 80's Fender Japan axe. I have never gig with that axe. I just play it now and than to remind me how easy it is to play Lesters. It has non-contour body and has been re-painted (quite badly). It's light and does look quite cheap. But plugged in and turned up: look out!!! That axe just got that typical maple neck Strat nasal growl.
Got all my guitars from fleabay except for '83 RS205 that was bought second-hand out of a newspaper. My main axe for gigs is Burny Les Paul Custom and play the RS-405 for mainly Red Hot Chilli Pepper songs and few of Clapton's songs. Usually take the RS-205 to practice because it does good approximation of Lester and Strato. As much as I would like to own and play Real MacCoy Lester or Strato, my budget just won't stretch. May be when I win lottery ...
Cheers Sam